Fed Listens

Transcript

Raphael Bostic: Well, good morning everyone.

Audience: Good morning.

Bostic: It's very good to see you all. I want to thank you for being with us this morning. I want to offer a special welcome to Governor Michelle Bowman from the Federal Reserve Board of Governors. Miki, it's good to have you here.

Michelle Bowman: President Bostic, it's wonderful to be here.

Bostic: All right. And no President Bostic, we're not doing that here.

Bowman: Okay, Raphael. Thought I'd start out that way.

Bostic: Yeah, I don't let anyone in the building call me president. Just call me Raphael, it's fine. And also, right at the outset, I want to thank our staff. There are a lot of people that are required to put an event like this together, and I just wanted to just say, always, how pleased I am at how these things turn out. And I have nothing to do with it. So I want to call out folks from our Research Division, Community and Economic Development, Event Management, our Law Enforcement, who you all have met, and our Public Affairs and public events operations. They are the real superstars here. And they're the ones who work hard every day to make sure that we hear different voices as we engage in our monetary policy conversations. They're doing outreach, they're setting up the programs, they're making sure that everything is put in place. And people always tell me. I'm the beneficiary, because people always tell me how wonderful a time they've had, and so I just wanted to say thank you for all that you do.

Now the Federal Reserve System began the Fed Listens series to hear from a range of voices about how monetary policy affects their lives and their economies. Now the original round of the Fed Listens series was really part of our comprehensive review of our monetary policy strategies, tools, and communications. And it culminated with a new framework that we issued in the summer of 2020. And that was right during the pandemic. A lot of crazy things—you may have missed that. But it was a very important thing, something that we hadn't done for quite some time. And we learned a lot through those initial Fed Listens sessions. And so we've decided to just keep doing it, thinking that this is a good thing to do and a good practice for us to engage in.

Here in this district, in the Sixth District, we did one last year in Nashville, and the goal there was to learn about how we were recovering economically from the pandemic. Today, we're going to continue to learn about the pandemic responses to our...our responses to the pandemic, and how it's reshaping our economy and our workforce.

Now let me just say a few words about what comes to my mind when I hear the words "Fed Listens." Listening has been a top priority and continues to be a top priority for us at the Atlanta Fed. And this happened long before I got here. The Bank's leadership, long ago, and the rank and file really came to the view that we do our job better when we hear from people on the front lines of the economy to find out what's working, find out what's not working, where there are challenges, and where there are opportunities. Now our primary tools for doing this are conversations with business and community leaders, both one on one and through venues and events like this one, and also via a set of national and regional surveys of businesses that we run. Now I hope that everyone is subscribed to the Atlanta Fed website. We do newsletters weekly, updates on all these sorts of things. If you are not, at some point today—not while we're doing the sessions, maybe in a break—I hope that you will go to our website, atlantafed.org, and sign up. Because there's a lot of material and information that we produce and prepare, and we want it to be used by everyone. So please, go do that.

All right. Now we are doing this, really, because it's important. And it helps us be better, as I said, and keeping our ear to the ground is important for a lot of reasons. Now as you probably know, we look at plenty of data on the economy. And I'm a geek. I love data. Data is great, but it is important to recognize that data has limitations. First, it's about aggregates. And the truth is that very few people, if anyone, actually lives at the average. People live either far above it or far below it. And if we are not hearing of these variations, we're missing the point of how people are actually experiencing this economy. And I'll say, in the Sixth District, we have tremendous variation when you look around the Southeast. You have places, metros like Atlanta, that have been growing continuously, and very steadily, even through the pandemic. There wasn't really a slowdown here. But then you don't have to go very far to find neighborhoods, small towns, and rural places that are not faring nearly as well. And so it is very important that we hear the perspectives from this diverse set of places.

Now by talking to business and community leaders, we learn about the reasons why the data are saying what they say. And this diversity of perspectives is important because, though we make monetary policy at a national level, the reality is that this $20 trillion-plus economy is really just an aggregation of all that diversity that I mentioned. So if you don't understand the diversity, the aggregate will not mean and make as much sense for us. Now another issue with the data is that it tells us what's already happened. It's backward looking. It's sort of like a historical record. But our policy is really designed to try to engage and anticipate what's likely to happen. And having conversations with businesses, hearing from surveys, really gives us excellent vehicles to do that well.

Now before I go into the program, let me say a few words about what the Fed is and what we do. I've always—I find that as I go around, nobody really knows what the Fed does. So I try to tell people as often as possible, so they can be our representative. So clearly we do monetary policy. We are also a bank regulator, and so we're really responsible for making sure that financial institutions operate in a safe and sound way and that they facilitate financial stability. We do a lot in payments, and a lot of people don't know about that, but we are very present in the payment system, trying to make sure that we have a safe, secure payment system and one whose services are available to all Americans.

And another thing that we do is we try to make sure that communities across this country get the tools that help them deal with the challenges that they are facing on the ground, so that their residents can achieve their greatest potential. And if you've been following us at all, you know our tagline is an economy that works for everyone. And so we want to make sure that every community is creating a foundation where that can actually happen.

Now if we're going to be good at these things, we really need to know what is happening on the ground. And we need to do it in a way where people tell us the truth, and don't tell us what they think we want to hear. And I have to say again I'm one of the luckiest people because I have a team that is really good at doing this and making sure that we hear what we need to hear and not what we want to hear. They meet continuously, and the important thing—and this is something that I think is important to recognize—conversations like this actually do matter for the policy that we make. We have a whole briefing series where part of it is set aside for the data and the hardcore economic models. But there's another significant part that is really about, what are we hearing from people, what are they telling us, what have we learned as we have listened to people's perspectives and views. And it impacts monetary policy. It is a real thing and it is quite important.

And this is not—this is more public, but so many of our conversations are of the Vegas rules variety, in the sense that we're going to keep it confidential, we're going to make sure that the things that you share with us do not put you and your businesses and your operations at risk. And that has really made a big difference. I feel like I have a great understanding and appreciation for things.

And we did put some of the stuff in. So we have something called the Beige Book, which I hope you're also familiar with. That's a summary of all the things that we're hearing, and all 12 Reserve Bank districts issue that, and so please do look at that as well.

Right. So I've been talking a lot. Now let me—I just want to close where I started. I'm so excited to have you here. It is great to be doing this program. Because as I said at the very outset, listening to you and having events like this helps us do our job better. And so I'm going to thank everyone in advance for being here. You're going to tell us the truth, tell us what we need to hear, not what we want to hear, and then we will be better for it. In fact, that really underlies this whole Fed Listens series. And so I just want to thank everyone. And let me close by saying, this is the first time we've done one of these in the city of Atlanta. Our first two were in other parts of the district, and I think given where the economy is today, hearing perspectives from Atlanta will be particularly helpful. There's a lot of things that are changing. This is a dynamic economy, it's growing quickly, and it is diverse, adding lots of jobs and people. But because of that, there are all the challenges that are super important. Affordable housing, making sure that people have economic mobility and resilience, which is often a challenge, and there are also important gaps in our workforce development system, which is especially important given how rapidly the economy is transforming.

So I look forward to hearing more about all of these things, but—and oh, I have to do this. So there is a Q & A session for each of our two panels. You have a sheet of paper on your tables, and for those who—if you're here. And for those who are watching us online, you can go to Slido.com, S-L-I-D-O dot com, and you can use the hashtag FEDLISTENSATL, and through there you can post questions. I'll be monitoring them, and when we get to the Q & A portion, we will take your questions to make sure that this is a session where we're talking about the things that you care about.

So okay. Now I'm going to stop talking, because this is actually about listening, and let me turn this over to Miki Bowman, for a few opening remarks. Miki?

Bowman: Thank you, Raphael. This time I'll use the stairs. Well, good morning. And I want to second the thanks that Raphael gave to the Atlanta team here for all of the work that you've done to put together these amazing panelists, both on small business this morning that I'll be speaking with you all about, moderating. And then the workforce development one that Raphael will be hosting a little bit later this morning. And as he said, this is such an important opportunity for us to learn directly from people who are actually participating in the economy, so that we can interpret the data that we're looking at to understand better how we should be thinking about how things are evolving, how real people are experiencing the economy, and of course inflation, as we've been working to fight against it for the last several years now.

So I want to start by saying thank you again, Raphael, for inviting me to join you this morning. This is the second of the Fed Listens events that Atlanta has hosted that I've been able to take part in. And I really appreciate your leadership in this system-wide initiative. So thank you so much for doing that. When the Board began the Fed Listens initiative, our purpose was to engage directly with the public to discuss issues that are related to our monetary policy decision-making framework, and our efforts to pursue our congressionally mandated monetary policy goals of price stability and maximum employment. And since that time, and as a recognition of the importance of engaging with people across the country from a wide range of geographies and perspectives, we broadened the scope of Fed Listens to become an ongoing process of consultation with the public, so that through Fed Listens and other Board and System convenings, we can learn directly from those of you who are experiencing the economy about how households and businesses are faring, and how they're affected by Federal Reserve decision-making.

In the latest of these decisions, after our July meeting, the Federal Open Market Committee [FOMC]raised the target range for the federal funds rate by 25 basis points and continued reducing the Fed's securities holdings. Both actions were aimed at bringing down inflation. I look forward to hearing from today's participants about how inflation and higher interest rates are affecting your day-to-day decision-making. But first, I'll briefly share my thinking on why I supported the FOMC's latest decision.

As many of you know, since March of last year, the FOMC has significantly increased the federal funds rate, which is our primary monetary policy tool. The goal is to raise interest rates throughout the economy to bring demand into better balance with supply and reduce upward pricing pressures. We've made progress in lowering inflation over the past year, but inflation is still significantly above the FOMC's 2 percent target. And the labor market continues to be strong, with job openings far exceeding the number of available workers. Economic activity has grown at a moderate pace, and even as banks have been tightening their lending standards, in response to higher interest rates and funding costs, lending to businesses and households continued to expand. So given these developments, I supported raising the federal funds rate at our July meeting. And I expect that additional increases will likely be needed to lower inflation to the FOMC's goal.

Of course, monetary policy is not on a preset path. And I will be closely monitoring the incoming data and its implications for the economic outlook. I'll be looking for evidence that inflation is on a consistent and meaningful downward path, as I consider whether further increases in the federal funds rate will be needed and how long the federal funds rate will need to remain at a sufficiently restrictive level. I know that high inflation has been a hardship, especially for lower- and middle-income families, who spend most of their income on necessities. Returning inflation to 2 percent will help American families focus on other important decisions instead of inflation. Addressing high inflation will ensure that it is no longer a factor for spending and investment decisions, and it will help put the US economy on a course of ongoing economic growth and rising living standards. But I also know that higher interest rates have made it more difficult for many to get a loan, to buy a home or a car, and for businesses to invest and expand. I'm interested to hear the ways in which inflation and higher interest rates are affecting the day-to-day lives of our participants today.

I'm also looking forward to learning about how the economy and the Fed's policies are affecting lower-income workers and small businesses, the two subjects of today's Fed Listens event. Over the past few years, for many, wage and salary increases have not kept up with inflation. And while that general pattern has improved recently, most workers still have not seen wage increases equal to price increases. For workers at the lower end of the wage spectrum, wage gains have been the strongest we've seen in decades. However, because necessities like groceries and gasoline make up a larger share of their household expenses, lower-wage workers have been experiencing the effects of higher prices more acutely than others. We also know from history that a slower economy with higher unemployment tends to hit lower-income workers the hardest, so we must remain attuned to the fact that our efforts to reduce inflation have the potential to undermine wage gains and job security for lower-wage workers. Should inflation remain at today's level or even increase again, lower-wage earners would continue to bear the brunt of these effects.

Small businesses are also more vulnerable in an economic slowdown than larger businesses. And I'm watching carefully to see how they are dealing with both high inflation and higher interest rates. Despite high inflation and significant challenges finding workers in a tight labor market, the past few years have been relatively good for small businesses and for new business formation. One noteworthy development is the remarkable surge in entrepreneurship, as shown in the significant number of new business start-ups. Rates of new business creation jumped beginning in mid-2020, after lagging for more than a decade. And recent indicators, like applications for new tax ID numbers, suggest the pace remained elevated through the middle of this year. New businesses have also been responsible for a surprising amount of job growth, with an average of one million jobs created each quarter from early 2021 through the end of last year, which is a significantly higher pace than was typical prior to the pandemic.

This extended period of elevated start-up activity has been good for workers and, in a larger sense, good for entrepreneurship. It may seem hard to believe, but many of today's largest businesses once began as small businesses. It's entirely possible that the next wealth-creating, world-beating business got its start during the depths of the pandemic. So I think I'll leave it there, and say thank you again for the opportunity to be a part of this important conversation today. But thank you so much, Raphael. Excuse me.

Bostic: You're very welcome Miki, and I think you're taking the lead for us.

Bowman: I am, so without too much delay, let's go ahead and get started. Give me just a second to get organized.

Anita Davis: Take your time.

Bowman: All right. So let's go ahead and turn to our first panel. Since the start of the pandemic, small-business owners have faced a range of challenges, from the lockdowns initially forcing them to close, and then reopening and the unique challenges that you faced during that process. And now in 2023, just as economic conditions began to stabilize across many industries, small businesses are facing tighter credit conditions for bank financing. So our first panel will share views of small-business owners from a range of communities. We have large metro areas, mid-sized cities, and rural. So to kick off the conversation, I'd like to ask each of our panelists this morning to provide a short introduction, and then I'll pose an opening question. So let's start with you, Anita.

So this is Anita Davis. So I'd ask you to begin by introducing yourself and your business, and then, if you wouldn't mind, after you've given us an overview of what you do and what your business is designed to accomplish, I'd love to understand the overall business conditions that your firm is facing. And how do you see the differences, for both you and your customers, from a year ago and currently, to the conditions that you face today?

Davis: Good morning, everybody. And first, let me thank you, Governor, and Raphael...

Bowman: Please call me Miki. Yeah.

Davis: ...for having me and my mentor, Patrick, here. I'm so happy to be here. Again, my name is Anita Davis and I'm the president of Praxis Strategic Solutions. We're a consulting firm. We're located here and headquartered in metro Atlanta. And I started my firm in 2016 after a 20-year bank lending career. So I have the luxury of sitting on both sides of the table. I worked with small-business owners to help them grow and scale. So I've helped companies acquire millions of dollars in capital to grow and scale their companies. Through the pandemic, we worked with hundreds of companies to help them become more stable and maintain their workforce. And now my firm continues to work with companies that are trying to scale their business and other companies that are just trying to sustain the businesses that they're in.

We do that in three ways. Basically I work with small-business owners. I call them my growth focus founders. Those founders are scaling, they're making business acquisition loans, they're buying commercial assets to build their balance sheets, and hiring more people. Then I work with advocacy groups, like many of you in the room, with technical assistance solutions to help their constituents understand access to capital and understand other areas of their business that they may need to stabilize to grow. And finally, I work with other advocacy groups that focus on the underserved and underrepresented communities, to help their constituents with one-on-one coaching and consulting to stabilize the business.

What I'm seeing in this economy, because I'm fortunate enough to have sat on both sides of the table as an adviser and then as a small-business owner myself, and in this particular environment, I think there are two different spectrums on what I'm seeing with my business customers and myself. My firm contracted a bit, because I work with capital and it contracted primarily during the pandemic, because the SBA [Small Business Administration] became a direct lender, and that used to be my secret sauce, and my secret sauce is now at Publix. So I don't have a secret sauce anymore, but what I still do is want to make sure that companies can navigate the space. And so we do have business owners on the one end of the perspective that are more optimistic, and even though there have been painful increases in their rate environment, which is really putting pressure on their expenses and their budgets, they still are able to navigate the funding space and understand the ROI [return on investment] that they need to be able to grow and scale their companies.

And then we have the other end of the spectrum, where companies are maybe earlier stage, and they are feeling the pinch of trying to manage through what's happening in the economy. It's somewhat difficult for them, but what I found is working with advocacy groups to help them with technical assistance solutions, the clients are getting the education to help them grow, but it's still difficult for them to scale in a bigger fashion.

Bowman: That's great insight. I appreciate that. And we are well aware that the impacts of higher interest rates have really created some challenges for funding. So that's really helpful for you to talk a little bit about that for us. But Aleia, let's turn to you. You're our second panelist here, Aleia Shipman. If you would please introduce yourself, and then I'd like to get your perspective on labor markets, and any of the challenges that you might be facing, or your perspectives on that. Especially throughout the recovery, the labor shortages have been a really important challenge for many firms. So I'd like it if you wouldn't mind characterizing the labor conditions that you've been facing, and any strategies that you might have employed to address that, for both for hiring and for retention.

Aleia Shipman: Okay. Thank you, Miki, and thank you, Raphael, again, for having us this morning. My name is Aleia Shipman, and I am the owner of 3G Chemical Solutions. We are an industrial and chemical supply company based out of Bessemer, Alabama. And for us, when it comes to labor shortages, prepandemic and postpandemic, we were having issues in that space anyway. Because we are a smaller company, it of course takes revenue, it takes dollars, to be able to obtain individuals and employees that you need to help you to grow your establishment. So for us, we had to get a little bit creative. We started... Amongst the programs that we participated in, we worked with University of Alabama on one particular program, and so they had students that worked for us for about eight weeks. And with those students, they basically came in, they dived into the company, and they said, "Okay, here are some resources for you that you should take on to be able to find maybe students that you need, graduating students, or interns," and so we utilized that service, and it's worked out very well for us.

The unfortunate side is that, again, as Miss Anita said and as Miki said, with interest rates increasing, we were—that's not a bad thing for us, in the sense that last year we were able to purchase a facility. We purchased that facility at a 3 percent interest rate. And then as now, we built equity into our business and into the building, we're not able to refinance, because everybody that comes back to us says, "Hey, you're not going to get that interest rate anymore." So we look at that, utilizing that interest and that equity to be able to assist us in gaining revenue to bring on more employees. So now we have to make sure that we're utilizing those interns. We're probably bringing on more part-time people instead of having full-time employees anymore. And so those resources for us are just a little limited, in that sense.

And then as far as retaining our employees, we look at other strategies to retain. We look at ways that may not necessarily be income-driven or salary-driven. It may have to be something like, "Hey, we'll take Fridays off," or we'll have other incentives that will create them wanting to be a part of the company. And so it's just the strategy of not necessarily focusing so much on the salary aspect of it, but also creating the culture that wants to allow that person to remain with us.

Bowman: Great. Thank you very much. Really appreciate that perspective, and look forward to hearing more as we get deeper into the questions. But next I'd like to introduce Will Ruzic. Will, if you wouldn't mind doing the same thing that your other fellow panelists have done, introducing your business, and then I'd ask you to share how your firm navigated the pandemic, while also seeking to create economic activities for rural communities, which is—being from a rural area, I find that to be extremely challenging, and I'm really interested to hear your experience there.

Will Ruzic: Challenging's a fair word. Thank you. Will Ruzic, vice president of operations at Provalus. So Provalus is an IT outsourcing managed services firm. So we would manage entire service platforms, for typically Fortune 1000, 2000 companies and larger. Those platforms may entail service desk, security, cybersecurity, entire network operations. So anything involving IT. And so our focus is really re-shoring the jobs that have left this country over the last 15 to 20 years, the hundreds of millions of dollars that leave this country. So we want to bring those jobs, intercept those jobs, keep those jobs in America, but our focus is not just keeping them in America, it is driving them into the heartland of America. So we focus on rural communities, taking IT careers to communities where IT has not existed previously. And so from there, it's about revitalization. So when you look at our centers, we're headquartered in Brewton, Alabama, opened up there five years ago, we're going to cross over 300 employees. And our centers are located on Main Street. We purposefully locate in the heart of the community, because to us, that's where the character lies. And we've lost that character in our rural communities.

So if we could put 100, 200, 300 people back into the heart of that community, what kind of life can we bring back? What kind of catalyst can we be for additional investment? What services must follow to help support us? The restaurants, the coffee shops, everything that closed—many of you have been through rural communities and seen these empty buildings—we want to refill those buildings. We want to bring life back into these communities, and then create long-term careers, change the mentality of this hourly employee in these small communities, and then together change the community. So that's our focus at Provalus.

And so going into this, the pandemic—obviously very, very challenging. And when you're in these small communities, and your mission is revitalization and you're facing a global pandemic, all of a sudden, your mission takes a back seat. So that was really kind of step number one. Because now we're managing fear, we're managing safety of employees, all with the idea that we want to make sure they continue to have jobs in that community.

And little unique in IT, and of course what it exposed for us, and really, I think it exposed for a lot of folks in this country—for us and really, I think, it exposed for a lot of folks in this country was the lack of high-speed internet in our rural communities. And so it really, really accelerated the understanding of the importance of that. And so when you think about an IT company sitting in a small community—let me say, in this country, we've done a great job of getting high-speed internet to rural America. We've got fiber to Main Street, but that's where we left it. And our people don't live on Main Street. They live outside the community. And so watching factories, small mom-and-pops, everybody else be able to maneuver, get folks out of their building, and here we are as an IT company knowing we need to get people out of our building, but we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year securing our network. We have multiple lines of high-speed internet, redundancy coming into our centers. When you manage cybersecurity for a Fortune-100 company, you can never, ever, ever go down. And so that's the importance of the networks in our centers. And now we're sending people or need to get people out of our building.

And 20 percent of our population doesn't have high-speed internet. And so you think about that in today's age, where internet availability is now a utility—I mean, it is something we live and die by. So that was very, very challenging for us. And as we go into these small communities, it's a project we take on. I mean, it's going to have to be a public-private partnership to address that need. And so that was extremely challenging. And then from there, we faced the challenge of remote work. All of a sudden, remote work became pretty mainstream. And that's not who we are. If we're going to make an impact in the community, we got to build that culture. We got to have teams. We got to have camaraderie. We're not a remote working facility. And so we do face that challenge, certainly in the labor market.

Bowman: Great. Thanks so much. I know high-speed internet is a real challenge for even large cities as well, but rural cities in particular have a difficult time when they don't have access to the internet. But now that everyone's been introduced... Thank you so much for telling us a little bit about what you do and what's important to your businesses. We're going to move to the part of this conversation where I'll ask a question that will be directed to one of our panelists, but feel free to contribute or weigh in if there's something that you particularly are interested in or you feel like there's something that you'd like to share. I would also like to just ask as we're going forward with this, since all of you were operating during the pandemic, it would be really helpful to understand your experience with the PPP [Paycheck Protection Program]—if you utilized that, how it was able to help you, and your experience with PPP and whether that was a benefit that you were able to take advantage of?

But I'll start with Aleia. Your business was right in the center of the supply chain challenges. So it would be really interesting, of course, because that led to a number of economic issues around the world actually. But if you wouldn't mind just sharing with us your experience about that and how you positioned your small business going forward in light of the challenges that you faced and how those may be resolving.

Shipman: Okay. Great question. And I'll start out with the positives of that, if anybody can find any in COVID. But for us, we were able to. One of our largest customers was Regions Corporation. They came to us needing to source about But10 million disinfectant wipes. So being a smaller firm—but we had great relationships with our manufacturers, and we were able to source those wipes for them. I mean, this was in a time when you had to go into the grocery store and everybody knows you had two rolls of toilet tissue you could get. And after that, it was like, okay, move on. So for us to be able to source over 10 million disinfectant wipes, that was phenomenal. You were having restrictions on everything. And so that showed not only our capability and our capacity that we were able to be that in that crunch, but it also gave us an opportunity to grow our relationships. And so with that, we took that opportunity and then that's how we were able to scale. As I mentioned, we were able to move into a larger facility.

But now, on the downside of that, we did feel a little bit like a one-hit-wonder, because with those same companies that were needing us in a pinch at that time, they didn't have the, I guess, the things in place for us to come on as a long-term supplier. And so that was the frustrating part for smaller companies like myself, because we were able to get in there and really dig in and help to source all of these types of products that were needed in that time, but we weren't able to capitalize on those relationships going forward long term. So now fast forward into 2023, when we're circling back and saying, "Hey, we're here. Remember when?" and we're not getting that same kind of feedback. We're not getting that same type of relationship that we were before when we were that pinch hitter for them. And so it really... I hate to say it doesn't set well, but it doesn't. It doesn't set well for small firms when we're trying to show that we have the capacity and the capability to be able to work with these companies. And so I definitely want them to know that we're able to source, we're able to provide products that they need in those pinches.

But for 3G and going forward, I think that we have to make sure that all of the capacity, all of the capability is shown going forward and that companies are able to understand that even though they're a small firm, that they can rely on us.

Bowman: Great. I appreciate that perspective. Anita, if you don't mind taking the next question. So we've talked a little bit already with your experience as a lender for small businesses. And, as we've seen, monetary policy has gone from more accommodative state to a more restrictive state over the last 18 months, and we've seen credit conditions tighten over that timeframe. So can you give us a little bit more of a perspective on your thoughts this year how the changes and the availability and cost of funding have constrained maybe business activities for your firm or for your customers or for other businesses that you work with?

Davis: Absolutely. My business is countercyclical to the economic conditions in the financial industry. Banks are tightening credit, but what that means for me is beneficial. How it's beneficial for me is because, as business owners go to try to get capital from the banks and they're tightening, declining more loans, not open to helping them with expansion, they now need a resource to help them navigate the space. And so, because I work pretty much with clients that have not been successful within the traditional banking system, they can come to me, and the bankers can come to me as a referral source to help those clients that are needing capital to grow and expand. The ones that are growth-focused are thinking through taking on these businesses that the gray tsunami has put out. So many business owners are retiring. There are great opportunities. So if they think through and can make that paradigm shift to grow and understanding their ROI on it, it makes sense for them to grow and scale.

Then there are other companies that are on the smaller end of the spectrum that basically still need PPP-like opportunities. The PPP program and the EIDL loans, they really help companies remain sustainable in those types of economic environments. And I still think some of those smaller, earlier-stage companies are experiencing problems staying alive and surviving. They don't really understand that the rate structure that was available during the pandemic was an unusual environment and not a norm. And so you have to really educate them that this is what the reality looks like, and then can you do some things internally to help yourself still maintain and grow? Maybe you need to change your pricing structure. They have to start thinking differently about how to make their businesses more viable and more vibrant. I still also think that sales growth is a challenge for some of these companies as well in this environment because they're not getting sales as rapidly as they need them to grow and scale. So that's becoming a challenge for small-business owners as well.

Bowman: Well, I'm glad you're there to help folks navigate the challenge of finding funding for their businesses. Are there any ways that you tend to direct people if there's not bank financing available? Are there particular areas that you favor over others for recommendations?

Davis: Absolutely. So I have the luxury of having developed my own network of banks and nonbank lenders, because a lot of additional companies came into the marketplace through PPP that are not traditional bank funding resources. There are CDFIs [community depository financial institutions] that are available to help companies that need resources. There are still quite a few programs available in the marketplace and grants that they can sometimes qualify for to help them in that space.

Bowman: I'm sure you'll get lots of questions about that following this event. So thank you for sharing that with us as well.

Davis: Absolutely.

Bowman: Will, if you don't mind, we'll ask you a question about economic opportunities in rural communities and your efforts to provide those for local folks in those communities. What are the challenges that your company faces in making sure that folks who might be interested in a role with your company can get trained to be appropriately skilled to be successful in your operations?

Ruzic: Yeah, so training is certainly, first and foremost, in helping folks understand what it means to create a career in these communities. So what we're trying to do is really change that mindset. We want folks to think more long-term, because most of these citizens have been in that hourly mentality and been at different jobs. And so we've got to help them think about what long-term looks like. But we're also an IT company, which is extremely unique for... Typically our towns are 5,000 to 10,000. So we're talking about very small communities here. So it is a very intense training program. When you bring somebody who's never had IT experience into an IT environment, you've got about six or eight weeks of a very intensive training program and then really another two or three months typically with client-specific training. So always a challenge to bring folks into that environment. And then from there, it's about retaining, right?

Bowman: Yeah.

Ruzic: So very, very important for us. I mean, we are training folks that live in the rural communities because they live there. We're not necessarily trying to move younger folks into these communities. We love when that happens, and we certainly love when younger come back to the communities because there's now opportunities, but we're training the folks that are living there because they live there. They chose to live there. It was the right lifestyle for them. And so we want to make sure we retain those folks. And once we get through training, which is where typically most of the retention falls out, it's about creating that culture. I think you mentioned this and the importance of understanding culture. Our culture is changing the community. We want to make a difference, and so we have to have our employees buy into that, and we want to give them those opportunities to give back. When you take somebody who has, for the most part, felt like the system's been against them and you empower them to help other people, that becomes powerful. Now we're a part of something bigger. And so that's the culture we create, and we do that through outreach programs. We do it through some of our own charities, but we partner with charities. And we give people the opportunity to help others, and that's how we make a difference, and that's how we create retention.

Bowman: So one aspect of the improved skillsets that you're providing... Because it can be unique, and we've seen a lot of pressure within the IT industry in particular for so many jobs that are open and a lot of competition among firms to hire IT skilled workers. How do you position yourself to keep those employees when there are so many opportunities that aren't onsite, that they could work from home?

Ruzic: Certainly a challenge. And that goes back to the remote that we challenge, but it is about upskilling. It is about continuing to train and upskill folks so that the more skills they gain, the more money they can make. We are essentially trying to rebuild the middle class in rural America. And so we have to put a focus on how quick we can get folks, first, comfortable in an IT environment, but then how can we give them those skills to continue to improve? Because people are our product, and the more we can charge, the more we can pay. I mean, and so it's how quick can we get those folks upskilled. We certainly want them to compete in the market. And so we have to put processes in place. We have to put benchmarks. We have to put accountability. We manage services now for close to 60 clients, and each one of those clients offers a different opportunity for our employees. So it's about getting them into the environment. Where do they get excited? What gets them motivated in IT? And then putting a program in place to get certifications, get the skills necessary, whatever it takes to give them those opportunities to grow their career.

Bowman: I think it's wonderful. What you said at the beginning was creating careers for people in rural communities. It's such a challenge to find opportunities like that within those rural communities. Many people commute outside to have that opportunity. So it's a really wonderful thing that you're doing. So thank you for focusing on rural in particular. So if I might shift a little bit, I'd like to ask a little bit about pricing pressures and how you are thinking about that and what might be some of your main cost drivers and any pressures that you might be facing if you're thinking about increasing your prices. And, Aleia, I might start with you, if you have any perspective on that that you'd like to share.

Shipman: Yes, ma'am. So of course, in the wholesale distribution industry, a lot of people know that pricing is increasing rapidly. Before we were looking at how can we maintain that pricing without passing it on to our customer? And so now it's kind of gotten beyond that. And so we're going back to looking at hiring. We're looking at expanding. We know that in order for that to happen, a couple of things have to happen, increase pricing, increase the amount of customers that you are going after, or essentially you're doing both. So in our case, we haven't raised prices probably in the last year or so, but it is absolutely in a position where we're not going to be able to not pass that on to the customer, but in ways that we explain to the customer that here are the reasons why. Now, the good thing about that is because it's not just us. It's everything. I was in the grocery store the other day. I love bacon–don't judge me—but $14 for a pack of bacon. And I had to make some decisions.

But that's the same thing when you're talking to an industry that they need their degreaser, or they need their sanitizer to make sure that they're keeping their employees safe. What are we going to do for that? And, again, for us, we have to make sure that we're offering the best product, but we're also trying to be strategic in how we pass that price on. And then thinking through, for us—I met Ms. Anita a while back because, for our company, we are trying to grow not organically anymore. We're trying to look at expanding through acquisitions. And so with that—

Bowman: That's exciting.

Shipman: Moving into the manufacturing space, we would be able to cut costs in that perspective because we're now looking at our costs of goods and not having to carry that load again. And so the cost that we were then passing along to our customer as a supplier, we become the manufacturer, and now we can keep that cost for them low. So those are things that we have to look at going forward for them.

Bowman: Now, well, that's very exciting to get to a stage in your business where you're looking to expand in different ways. That's fantastic.

Shipman: Exciting. Yeah.

Bowman: I just am so excited to see women in the professional space here on our panel. So thank you for sharing your experiences. But, Anita, I'd like to hear your perspective on that pricing pressure issue for the people that you're working with as well. How are you hearing that? Or how are they articulating that to you as they're thinking about how to continue on with business in the near term?

Davis: Most of my clients have had to revisit their pricing structure to stay viable, because sometimes they're not able to increase. Like I said earlier, if they're not able to increase the number of customers that they can acquire, then the way they can stay in business is to increase their pricing structure. But just like Aleia just mentioned, the pricing challenges are everywhere throughout our economy. So everybody is used to seeing pricing increases. My clients have to scale the value of what they do to make sure that their customers are understanding this is what you're receiving for the increase in your value, but just like most of the customers that they have, they're increasing pricing as well. So I think it's just spread out across the board that everybody is seeing the need to increase prices to keep up with the inflation. They don't really understand how the increases in the rate environment is helping them grow. And so, as a small-business owner, if your expenses are going up, up, up and increasing, it's really difficult for them to understand how they can add new employees or maintain their employees, because even employees are asking for more dollars to be able to remain with your firm, or else they might just shift and go to another firm.

So I think that it's just a lot of movement going on at the same time that's causing the challenges. But certainly pricing for most clients are increasing as well.

Bowman: Well, this has been a really fantastic perspective. And I'm taking up all of the oxygen with the questions that I'm asking, but I'm sure we have a number of questions from the audience and also from our virtual participants as well. As I might ask, Raphael, if you'd like to take over and moderate those questions.

Bostic: Well, your instinct is exactly right. We've got a ton of questions here. And I'm going to run through them. And I should've just said for everyone, you all should be on Slido, even if you're not going to pose a question, because you can see the questions, and then you can vote on them to sort of get some to the top of the list if they're more important for you. So please do weigh in, I would encourage you. But we do have a fair number of questions here, and I will just start with the first one. It goes to you, Aleia. And I want to first say I love bacon too, so I'm dealing with the same challenges. But here's the question. You mentioned giving people every other Friday off, and the question of John Helton's is, "Glad to hear that you're thinking outside the box when thinking about compensation and job quality for employees." And so the question—and actually this question's for everyone, so all of you should jump in—"How are you thinking about job quality in terms of recruitment and attraction and retention?" Because we got a tight labor market. So, Aleia, you can take that a little bit first, and then I'd love to get feedback from the others.

Shipman: Okay, so it goes back to what I mentioned briefly just then, with looking at acquisitions and gaining human capital through that, because if I'm looking at acquiring another facility, then I'm bringing on employees. From that perspective. So that s-...

Bostic: Yeah, take the mic.

Shipman: Oh, I'm sorry.

Bostic: No, no, just take Anita's mic.

Shipman: So it's assisting us... Oh, that's a lot better. It's assisting us in growing in that perspective, because before, as I had mentioned, trying to grow organically prepandemic, that may have been feasible, but now with the labor shortage, with the Great Resignation, we don't have that option anymore. And a lot of times, what we're willing to pay is not necessarily what our competitor is willing to pay. They may be, of course, paying $5 or $6 more. And so how do we create that culture and that willingness for that employee to want to be a part of us? So I think what I've been utilizing is, you're coming in at a great opportunity when the company is growing and scaling. Sometimes they would have gone in maybe at an entry-level position, but based off of what I need, they may come in at a little bit higher level that gives them more of an experience to say I am really breaking ground with this company. I'm coming in and I am setting policies and procedures and things that they may not have done had they gone to a larger firm. So those are things that we're trying to do.

Bostic: Will?

Ruzic: So wage pressure is certainly an issue not unique to rural or major metros. It's something we face everywhere. And what we really found is that people aren't really leaving just for money. It is not the number one driver. And so with that information, okay, then what can we do to create that retention if money is not the number one issue? Which sometimes it is, but for the most part, people leave people. And so we have to put programs in place that train our folks, our managers, in understanding what it means to lead and transform people and make sure that our employees understand our culture, they buy into our culture. It is about creating that space they want to be in. They need to be a part of something bigger than themselves, something that they feel almost like a family. And so it really is that focus on culture and transformation within the community and, as I said, empowering them to help other people. That's how we make the difference.

Bostic: Anita?

Davis: So in my business, I use subcontractors to support the consortium. And the way I developed the consortium, I worked with women-owned subject matter expert. And we were all individually maybe too small to deliver our solutions, but as a consortium of women business owners that are delivering training solutions for cohorts, it has helped us have a closer feel for delivering our products without having the pressure of everybody having to do every step on their own. So my partners come under practiced strategic solutions, and then they are able to deliver their training solutions to one of the advocacy agencies that I support and not have to do every step. So they don't have to go out and do the sales process. They don't have to go out and bid the contracts. I go out and I do those things, and then I bring them in to try to help these other women-owned small businesses grow and scale. So we practice what we preach. These are typically women that will fall into the category of your underserved and underrepresented businesses, so we support that through the advocacy agencies that hire me and our firm, and then we in turn utilize that same kind of structure to support these other women-owned businesses.

Bostic: So thank you. I have three questions here, all for you, Will. We're going to try to do this is sort of rapid-fire format. So first, in terms of your business model, are you requiring degrees of any sort for your new hires or do you rely primarily on your training? Do you have things like apprenticeship programs and the like?

Ruzic: So, no requirement. We prefer a high school diploma. We've actually hired folks that had dropped out of high school, but we would put them on a track to at least get their GED. We want them to at least accomplish that. So there are no degree requirements. We do have in each of the states we're in developed apprenticeship programs so that we can bring folks in, get certified apprenticeships, hopefully help them continue some education, partnering with local two-year colleges in the area.

Bostic: Second question. Because this broadband issue in rural places is a huge hurdle for these places to have businesses be successful, have you seen programs, either at the public-sector or private-sector level, that have worked well? What is working in this space that we should be trying to project out into every community?

Ruzic: Minimal. I have not seen... Again, as I mentioned, we've done a good job getting it to us. We just have not done a good taking it out into the really sparse areas. And so when I think about that, I have to think about how the power companies address this. We went through this issue many, many, many years ago. And of course, it was done through co-ops and other out-of-the-box thinking. And so we're going to have to create those public-private partnerships in some way to be able to get high-speed internet out to these folks because, I mean, it is now a primary utility in our lives. And now you're talking about children that are having to do so much online, and it's causing disruption. But no, I have not seen any programs so far that have addressed all of those issues.

Bostic: All right. Well, this is definitely a to-do for all of us to think about, because this is really critical if we're going to be an economy that works for everybody. So we're going to have to figure this out. The third question was in terms of industry sectors. So who are you trying to serve? Are there specific industries like fintech or digital health? Are there functions or cybersecurity or cloud or data analysts? What's the scope of the work that you're engaged in?

Ruzic: All of the above. We are in the fintech space. We are doing a lot of health care right now. Ralph Lauren is a client, for instance. We're doing a lot of cybersecurity for Ralph Lauren. Chick-Fil-A is one of our fastest growing clients here, based out of Atlanta. And so we manage a lot of the IT for Chick-Fil-A, just as examples. But we are in all of those. Our scope, again, ranges from help desk, which we would call entry-level, to be able to get folks into the IT space and then grow them into managing security, managing cybersecurity, application development, eventually moving into coding and software development so that now we're diving into true information technology.

Bostic: Thank you. So, Aleia, a question for you. You talked a lot about the importance of culture in the workplace and the strategies to maintain that positive environment. How are you assessing whether it's working or not?

Shipman: They're still coming to work. No, no. So through our evaluation and performance evaluation plans and stuff like that. I'm very open and very transparent with the employees, and I just ask the questions, what can we do differently? What are we needing? And I think I'm a good reader of just the vibes in the office. I'm always saying, hey, my door's always open. And I know some people say that and don't always mean it but I truly mean it. And they come to me without any hesitation and I think honestly, and I joked about it and I said they still come to work, but they do. And they're excited to be there and when we have our Monday morning meetings and we do our morning affirmations, and we speak positively as come through the door. And all of that's important because it takes the mindset to be able to be—entrepreneurship is not easy, so it takes the mindset that when you walk through that door, we're here to build something.

And then whatever that mind is thinking, that's what we're building. So if we're thinking that, hey, we're going to close on this manufacturing facility and we're going to grow our revenue by 50 percent, then that's what we're going to do. But that takes from the leader being able to show that and be able to manifest that through the team as well. So I think just being able to see that just in our conversations are ways that I'm able to just kind of gauge how they're feeling, how that's working for them.

Bostic: Well, we are out of time for this panel. I wanted to just thank you, Anita, Will, and Aleia for sharing your perspectives on how small business has been navigating the economic recovery. It's been a really interesting discussion. It's been very wide-ranging. So many important issues, and we've got some takeaways. I just wanted to thank you all for your time and your willingness to join us.

Shipman: Thank you.

Bostic: All right. So now we're going to do a little scene shift here. So for our next panel is about the workforce. I'd ask Keith and India to come on up, or come on down, like Bob Barker. And again, thank you all. Will, you're going to stick with us for this one.

Good conversation on this. I'm just so pleased to welcome all of you on our second panel. I'm going to do Keith. I must mention you first, to Keith Parker as the president and CEO of Goodwill of North Georgia, which is a nonprofit and mission driven organization that offers training and employment support in addition to the donation centers that might typically come to mind when you hear of Goodwill. Actually just dropped something off at one just a couple weeks ago, so we're going to keep making that happen.

I'm also pleased to welcome India Watson. India is the Goodwill North Georgia graduate of the year. Congratulations. And she's with apartment maintenance, from the apartment maintenance program and currently works as a property manager at Kinstone Communities. We were also going to have Ashley Black, who is the managing director of equity strategies and the global office of diversity, equity, and inclusion at Delta with us. She had an illness and was not able to be here, so this morning, Will was the first one here and so we said, "Will, we got another job for you."

So Will has agreed to sit in on this panel to offer his perspectives on that, so thank you again, Will. And I want to thank you all again. I mentioned the Slido before so this is another opportunity. This is going to be a different set of issues, but the same process, the same technology, so please be on there, ask your questions, and we'll incorporate that as possible into the conversation. And Miki, I know I'm supposed to be monitoring this, but if you have some questions you should jump in as well and definitely sort of have this flow as easily as we possibly can.

All right. So I'm going to start with Keith and the question here, tell us a little more about yourself and the work of Goodwill North Georgia, and, in particular, how you're thinking about economic mobility for workers in this region.

Keith Parker: First, are the microphones working? Can you hear me okay?

Bostic: Yeah. You're sounding good right now, so we'll stay on that.

Parker: Well, good morning and thank you to the Atlanta Fed for the invitation. Of course, I'm a major, major fan of yours, President Bostic, and appreciate opportunities to have a chance to have these types of conversations. So I'm going to start off these types of chats by asking how many of you have ever shopped at or donated to a Goodwill? So that's always the answer, 100 percent. And I know maybe one or two, you're not telling the truth, but for the most part everybody knows Goodwill through our retail centers.

But then when I typically ask that question, I follow up with, how many of you know what we do with the profits that we make from your interactions? So always a smaller number of people. But effectively what we do is use the profits from the 69 stores and another 50 or so donation centers that we have sprinkled throughout North Georgia to help people find the careers of their dreams. And we do it through what we call the ABC approach: a job, better job, career. So people in some respects, very, very low skills when they come to see us. We will work to find an entry level or just a job to get them going, to get them to a point where they're learning how to be a reliable person, a reliable team member and so forth.

From that, we can build on then go to a better job and then on to a career. So quite frequently, and you'll hear from me and then you'll hear India's story, but quite frequently we have people who many would've given up on that thought—well, the guy has had 10 jobs in the last two years and just not reliable. But what we find is with the right type of upskill and the right type of support, that individual can become a superstar team member. And we have countless numbers of examples of that.

So in the last six months, for example, this has been probably our best six months ever, and I'll talk a bit more about that. But we came out of the pandemic seeing much lower numbers in terms of people coming into our career centers, raising their hands, saying they wanted to take on a new job. But that began to change around the turn of the year. We'll talk a bit more with you about that. For me personally, working with Goodwill has just been a life-changing experience. I came out of the public transit world. I ran transit authorities around the country, including right here in MARTA, had success.

But about five years ago, hearing that Atlanta remains the number one place in the country in terms of lack of economic mobility. If you're born in certain ZIP codes here in this incredible place, the chances of you getting out of poverty is like lottery odds, that you are 96 percent likely to be born in poverty, spend your entire life in poverty, and die somewhere between 10 and 20 years sooner than other people who live just three miles away. And to me, the number one way, short term in particularly to change that is to find somebody in that household a good job and a career pathway. So that's why I'm here and glad to have this conversation.

Bostic: Well, I'm glad you're here as well and I'm looking forward to hearing more about this. And you see so many interesting things. Let me just go right to India. Now India, you're a Goodwill graduate of the year.

Watson: Yes.

Bostic: That's a lovely, that's a great touch. Put that on a business card. That's really wonderful. To do that, you've had to have had a very inspiring journey. Can you tell us a little bit about what your pathway has been in terms of employment in general, but also since maybe this thing specifically since the pandemic? What's been going on?

Watson: I spent most of my life being an airline employee. That's how I was able to raise my son by myself and travel to different places. But initially what caused me, what result of COVID was, is I ended up making a desperate choice to move into a place that wasn't ready. And I proceeded to have to live underneath a slumlord, and he wouldn't even accept government assistance from the COVID. You know how the landlords had to approve that. He wanted our hard-earned money and that was that, and he was not going to do what the law told him to do as a landlord.

And so after that happened, then it made it where now I had poor rental history and it takes five years to get forgiveness of that or to clear that up, unless you're just going to pay for a service that you're not going to receive. So I ended up homeless and I went to a women's center, Atlanta Mission, and they gave me a place to just rest and relax and try to heal and get out of panic mode so that I wouldn't continue to make desperate decisions. And I ended up needing a computer lab so I ended up at Goodwill Career Center, and I really thought about, okay, career center. I do need a career overnight. I don't need a job, I need a career.

So they were able to provide that for me—I mean, pay for my transportation and really get my hands on, a little externship or something so that I could get in and touch and smell and feel and see if this is what I want to do. As opposed to in college, you spend two years not involved in the field that you think you're interested in. And then when you get in there and you smell it, you don't want it. So now you have to make up for lost time. I appreciate the Goodwill program because it is short. For me to get my certification, it's short and that way I don't lose my train of thought or my passion for that career because I'm able to get in there.

And then also, their programs cross-train you and that's very important in a job to keep the employees being able to empathize with one another. Because if I don't understand what my manager does or what another department that's linked into me getting my job done, then it's going to be a lot of conflict, it's going to be a lot of people walking away.

Bostic: So you said something that I actually talk about a lot, which is desperation and panic mode, because when people are feeling that kind of stress they make very short-run decisions. Because you're desperate, you do what you have to do. And oftentimes, as we saw for you, that wasn't going to be long-term helpful. It was going to lock you into bad places and fortunately, you found Goodwill and heard the word "career" and it flipped a switch and has you going, and now you're Goodwill graduate of the year. It's wonderful.

Watson: And now I've found an employer who appreciates and celebrates me. We actually do different things together and some mornings we may do role reversal, where you'll go and shadow somebody who works in another department where you get to see and know what they go through. And if, God forbid, something happens to them where they can't make it to work or they're sick or something like that, we can always fill in for one another. It's developing an interdependent relationship instead of a dependent one or a narcissist impact of. So being able to develop that interdependent relationship and teaching one another how to communicate effectively, the best way to do that is to be able to understand what every level entails.

Bostic: Well, you're interdependent. Go on, Miki.

Bowman: Can I ask question?

Bostic: Yeah.

Bowman: So you mentioned that your employer just sounds amazing, which is fantastic, and you're very lucky to be able to work with them. But I wondered, Keith, do you partner with employers through those programs that you're offering for the workforce development that India was able to take part in? [To India:] Was that how you found your employer or was it just because you were an excellent candidate for your job based on your training and skills?

Watson: Actually, Goodwill worked with other nonprofit or other organizations, charitable organizations and the one that they worked with is called, well, it was called Shelters to Shutters and now they changed their name to Entryway. And they were able to collaborate with them and help me to find the proper employer.

Bowman: Fantastic. I think those partnerships are so important.

Parker: So India is just an excellent example of what you need to do to meet the person where they are. And we try to have a just absolute no-judgment type of mentality when people come through our doors. We have 14 career centers sprinkled throughout North Georgia and every single person who walks through one of those career center doors, or even virtually, we immediately want to help them assess what it is they can do and what they want to do.

So we knew she had barriers to employment, a whole host of things, including transportation, and she needed to make some money while she was working, while she was training to be in a position to take full advantage of the opportunities that are out there. Because if you tell the typical person who is basically living paycheck to paycheck, "I've got this wonderful program but it takes 16 weeks and you won't be paid during that entire time period," you may as well tell them walk to the moon.

So while the stipend we offer isn't a huge amount of money, it's money. And the transportation is there for them, even up until the first two or three paychecks because we know they need to have those first two or three paychecks under their belt before they're really able to completely be on their own. But a major component of this is partnership so we have over 5,000 different employer partners out there, as big as Home Depot and Coca Cola and as small as sole proprietorships and so forth. And we work with all of them to help place tens of thousands of people over the last few years into these various sometimes entry-level jobs, sometimes mid-level.

The program that India went through is an outstanding program that within about eight to 12 weeks. She has learned basic plumbing and sheet rock and all sorts of other things that you need to do to maintain an apartment. And what was so fascinating about her story was, so just real, the day she won Goodwill Graduate of the Year, she had about a dozen of her coworkers who were there to cheer her on. That's a big, big deal. So to make this person's journey smoother, it just takes more and more people paving the way for them to make sure that success is not short term as well, and that it's truly long term.

Bostic: Well, I mean, the investment is worth it. You find out you get a lot more when you sort of really create a foundation, an environment where every person can be their best selves and do the best work of their lives. And that's what we try to do in our bank. We're trying to make sure that every employer is thinking about it that way because as you said, a lot of folks are not at their full potential. And you can get them a lot closer there with relatively small focus investments. It's really critical.

Will, we heard a little bit about your experience before and one issue that didn't come up was who are the people who you're working with? And do they fit a particular demographic? Are there groups that you wish you were engaging with more in these rural places that aren't seeing this as an employment opportunity? How are you thinking about that in terms of diversity and make sure that you're reaching in to all the different subgroups in our rural populations?

Ruzic: Yep. Thank you. India, congratulations.

Watson: Thank you.

Ruzic: What a powerful testimony. And I love how you're solving transportation. Transportation is a barrier, certainly in the rural areas so we'd love to talk to you further about maybe what that looks like. So in the rural areas, our focus is really being a mirror of the communities we are in. And so when you walk our floor, certainly for me to move to rural 24 years ago to raise my family, I walk across our center and I see people, to me, that looked lost in the system before, meaning that their parents didn't own a small business that they could go to work in, they weren't going to go to the lumber mill, the paper mill, the auto manufacturer. They were really just lost, so they had two choices. Do nothing or leave the community.

But they wanted to stay in the community. And so we so those folks on our center. So what that means is IT is a perfect equal opportunity employer. I mean, there is no reason somebody cannot get into IT. There are really no physical limitations, and so that's where we put that focus is, how can we reach everyone in this community and show them that IT is an opportunity for them? And sometimes we do have to get out of the box. That may mean partnering with churches and doing presentations in local churches and civic groups. But hopefully locating those advocates for us in the community and again, showing them it's really just about aptitude and putting your mind to it and helping change that mindset.

Because of course, it always is, I can't do that. IT is not for me. IT is not my thought. And so we have to give them that confidence that they can do this, and that goes back into that training. But diversity for us is extremely important. We have, when we start talking to other communities—and I've been in four states now in four weeks as we're looking for additional opportunities to open about one of these a quarter over the next two to three years—we ask those folks to come see us. When we start talking to communities we say it's wonderful to hear our story, wonderful for us to talk about the things we're doing, but come see it. You've got to come see it, experience it.

So when they come into our centers, they get that same feeling. They say, "You know what? This is our community. These are the folks in our community that we need to reach." And so that's important for us to have that aspect, both from cities and our clients who come see us. We also want them to feel that impact. So diversity, extremely important for us, even in how we design our buildings now. That's a little different when you start looking at certain areas and bathrooms and spaces for folks to be able to feel safe. We design all of that into our buildings so that we are including everybody in our workforce. No barriers in our workforce.

Bostic: So no barriers in meeting people where they are seems like a common theme in how both of you are approaching this. And I wanted to ask you a different question, which is really about trends. Now I mentioned in my opening remarks we're trying to get out ahead of things and anticipate where the world is going. What trends have you been seeing in terms of both what the workforce is looking for, but also how easy or difficult it is to match the workforce with the needs of the business community? What's happening in those spaces? Keith, maybe we'll start with you.

Parker: So it's a mixed bag, it's a strange—you know this better than anyone, almost every employer has slightly different needs and challenges and so forth. But what we saw going into the pandemic, we had our best year ever going into it, where we had placed about 26,000 people into jobs around North Georgia. And the wages were going up quite a bit and then of course, Covid hit and all the things that we all talk about frequently, the resignations and so forth, we saw those numbers go down.

But last six months, we've had a significant resurgence to the point where just last month alone, we placed almost 3,000 people in one month. There are many workforce development groups around the region, around the state who don't place that many people in a year. So our trends are going up very significantly, and one of the big pieces that's important with that, the wages alone with those jobs are going up pretty dramatically as well. When I started five years ago at Goodwill, of the 20,000 or so people who we placed the prior year, only 14 percent were placed into living wage and better jobs. This past month and this past six months, we're now over 80 percent of the people who we're placing into living wages and better type positions. So people are literally moving out of poverty and into the middle class.

But what we are hearing in this last six months as well is a shift away from the economy, where before we had people coming in and we were helping them put together two or three different jobs. They're now asking us, I want one full-time job with benefits that know I can have 40 full hours and a bit more stability. So we're seeing that happen. More African American males particularly coming into the workforce, after maybe either sitting on the sidelines or doing a multitude of different things.

So it's a shift. We don't know if it's a permanent trend, but definitely we're seeing more folks walking in, raising their hands saying they want employment and permanent employment of different types, everything again from transportation, the hospitality sector, the health care sector, all seeing upward trends.

Bostic: And it's very exciting because historically, we know the unemployment rate for African American males is typically double what you see on average for the better part of the population. So this is a trend. Hopefully, it picks up and keeps going because we've seen those gaps now. Actually, those gaps now, it's significantly during the pandemic and in the last several months they've started to widen again. And so hopefully, this becomes a national trend so we can keep those gaps now and actually find a new equilibrium where we're getting everyone pretty much at the same experience.

Parker: And I'll just add to that, the wage level that we're placing African American men right now is the highest it's ever been, I mean, by a considerable amount, in fact.

Bostic: That's very exciting. Will, what are you seeing?

Ruzic: I would say we're seeing some of those same trends. Where we were a year ago in recruiting and now we have six centers across the country so we are recruiting and training hundreds of people every month. And so the process, the number of folks that we are seeing applying is increasing. And like you, we're not sure if this is a trend, if this is just a blip in the radar, we don't know, but we're excited to see it. We are getting lots and lots of interest and of course, we are that full-time employer that they're looking for. And we pay 100 percent of healthcare because we think that's important. We think that's the right thing to do in rural America, and so those folks are looking for that stable income. They're seeking us out as opposed to us having to really, really get out there and churn it up. So we're excited about that. We still face, as I mentioned in the earlier session, the challenge of remote work. That has become certainly mainstream. We train folks in rural areas because they're living there, they have chosen to live there, and so we create that retention because they're in that community.

But it's challenging for us when a company from outside can come in and hire them remotely, and so that's something we continue to face. Remote is not who we are. As I've said, we want to build that culture, be that catalyst for change. We have to do that together and we got to create that camaraderie. So something we'll always be challenged with.

Bostic: And when we think about the pandemic, that's one big change that's happened in the labor force, in the labor market that competitors are coming from all over the place because there's an awareness of that remoteness is possible. I'll say if I was not aware of it two days before this pandemic happened, and then all of a sudden it became our reality. And I think all employers are rethinking, how do you manage this and for your own staff, but also in terms of the external world. It's actually quite interesting.

Now India, I wanted to turn to you. You talked a lot about the things in your current experience, the job shadow, you go and follow that, are exciting and sort of broadening your perspective.

Watson: Yes, and I forgot to mention that Goodwill even was very patient with me because I am a 51-year-old woman, going into a new industry that's predominantly male. And so I didn't have a lot of experience and I didn't have any technique so I asked them, can I please do maybe a couple of months with a temp agency? So that then I can go and be what's called a punch tech. And with that, I'm in an apartment by myself and I'm paying for appliances, I'm doing everything to get the apartment ready for move in, which gives me experience and able to develop a technique so that then I won't waste their time and money that they invested in me and get fired because I don't have the confidence or the experience. You know what I'm saying?

So yes, they were very patient and allowed me to get my feet wet a little bit so that then when I applied for a permanent position I had more confidence. I knew more questions to ask about what I would need and if whether or not they provided it and stuff like that. So that really helped me being able to, them having the patience with me to get that little bit of experience in order to do well in a permanent situation.

Bostic: And on many levels what you're saying is the difference between a job and a career, when a career is knowing all those things and knowing which questions to ask. And knowing if you get an answer that doesn't sound right, that this may not be the right place for me. When you've been asking these questions, how have employers been? Have they been straight with you and direct, or taken aback? How's that experience been?

Watson: Actually, they are very welcoming to my honesty and they, I guess, really listened because I was willing to show that I understood what they offered. But then also, that I was able to articulate what it is that I was expecting and what it is that I needed. And so it was good thing really.

Bostic: Well, that's very important. And I also say this to young people all the time, when you're applying for a job, it's a match. As much as they're interviewing you, you should be interviewing them to make sure that you're going in the right way. And that's exactly what you're doing is actually quite impressive. And it's where we also take a lesson on that because it's exactly the right way to approach it.

Keith and Will, tight labor market, in some levels it's more competitive than it's ever been. What are you seeing in terms of—we talked a little bit, Will, about this—but what are you seeing in terms of what employers are willing to do? What are the extra things that they're willing to do to try to retain and attract workers and lowering the barriers for workers to be part of their organizations?

Parker: So I think it's a variety of things, and what we stress with employees, and we're an employee ourselves, too, you know, we have 3,000 employees, we're the largest Georgia-based, Georgia-centric nonprofit in the state and so we have to create a good culture and so forth. Right now we're at about 94 percent filled of all our positions, which we think is very strong, particularly for a larger retail-based organization. Once we get people passed typically the year mark, they're there, they stay.

But in terms of what we try to really impart with employers is broaden your scope of who your potential workforce is. There are tons of people coming out of the criminal justice system who could be great workers. People who are recent retirees, people with disabilities, a whole host of folks who in big labor markets you can pass over, but right now some of these folks are some of the most talented and ready-to-work people that you can possibly bring on to your teams. What we have found is that particularly—we'll mention folks coming out of the criminal justice system—the number of folks who once we have again, done some of our soft skill training and other things, their retention rates are better than the folks who don't come out of the criminal justice system. So give people a chance, give them the skills to succeed, and then we can see some real positive results.

Another thing, I'll shift gears just a bit, I know, Raphael, this is the part where I've heard you speak on a bit, and this is how we treat entry-level folks in the workforce. In my own case, our vice presidents and so forth, if I recruit a new vice president that means that that's one of the highest paid people in the company. They have immediate health care, they have immediate time off, if they need to go to their daughter's graduation a week from now, we will make accommodations to see that happen. But what happens to a person who makes eight bucks an hour? They are told, "You must be here right away, immediately. There's no flexibility." Typically, they have no sick leave. No paid vacation. None of those things for the entire first year. If they are late two or three times, they're fired.

We sure need to flip that on its head and be much more accommodating with the folks who have the smallest areas for error. They're so fragile in many respects that if they have one bad experience with a supervisor, many of them are thinking, "Heck, I'm making eight bucks an hour for you, I can go across the street and make that same eight bucks an hour. I'm leaving." Versus if you have good communication with that individual, find out, hey, look, they need a little bit of help on this or that, take care of that component, and you've got an employee who likely is going to stay with you for the long haul. So doing things to be more flexible, accommodating for our most fragile employees, the same way you would make those accommodations for the executives who are joining your organization I think is the new paradigm that we should be looking at entry-level and lower-wage team members.

Watson: Keith, you left out one thing that I think is really good. I forgot to mention. Goodwill has something called a retention coach or whatever, and he checks in with me. He explained to me how many calls we would have to have within a year's time. It made me feel like no matter what happens on this job, I know the retention coach understands me because we've been talking, we've been communicating and they can help me find a place that's more accommodating or more room for growth or development. It really made me not have to be in panic mode when I started a new job because I used to work for a Fortune 500 company so I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to be just a number and da, da, da, da. But with me having that retention coach as a backup, I knew that he could probably help me keep my job or help me to find a better fit. So that was really good.

And I wanted to ask you [to Ruzic], how about you have a department for remote people as well as...? I mean until you can get the internet thing worked out.

Ruzic: You put me right on the spot, huh?

Watson: Because you're doing good with the advertising. Word-of-mouth advertising is the best advertising. It really lasts forever and so that's what you're getting to do here today and stuff and so you're finding out about how... you know, Goodwill has an IT program. Yeah, they do.

Ruzic: Would you like to work remotely?

Watson: No, no. I'm just trying to help you out.

Ruzic: Well, we do have some remote because of some skill sets we have to hire for, we have limited remote, but it's not our primary source. But I'll take your suggestions to heart.

Bostic: I didn't think we were going to have—this is like the small business advice what's going on with that. It all comes together. That's fantastic.

I wanted to go into forward looking for Keith and Will as well. What are you expecting things to be like six months from now?

Parker: It is a fascinating economy and I think about how AI, for example, is going to be impacting things as well. I think that's potentially double-edged. So, for example, what we know AI is going to eliminate some jobs, if not total jobs at least some portions of different types of jobs. But I also think it will free up and create great new opportunities.

I'll give you a story, my roof. So the roof of my house had some damage, so I called the insurance company. They send out a guy. I had the same thing done years ago in a prior house where it was a small crew who had to come out, go on top of the house, do all sorts of measurements. About a week-and-a-half or so later, they sent me the estimates of what it was going to take and a whole host of information. This time, one guy comes out, take a ladder, gets on top of the roof, takes his cellphone and he walks the roof. In about 20 minutes, he sends me a message indicating, here's what the level of damage you have, here's the materials we'll need to get this job done, and the whole works. He was a high school graduate. So he had now done the work of a small team of people.

Literally, as he was doing this, I'm thinking, that's a job training thing that we could do right at Goodwill. We could teach somebody to all the things that he was doing up there. We could have somebody in six weeks ready to roll. I didn't ask him exactly what he was making, but I can guarantee you it was over 50-, 60-, 70,000 bucks a year. So that's where I think the AI and the automation component can work both ways. You can take a person who may have needed a four-year degree a few years ago and now, with the types of information that's available to individuals, you can put them in places where they never would have seen themselves prior.

So what's going to happen over the next few months, we don't know for sure, but definitely I think we're going to see this content continue to grow because as more and more people come out of the pandemic and become more free and we see people are traveling all over the world now like they really never have done before, that the demand on services and so forth will continue to go up. I'd like to see workers continue to get more of the benefits that are coming to the employers, and if we see those things go up together, I see an extremely strong economy moving forward.

Ruzic: We feel the same. So it's been interesting. The pandemic created lots of opportunities for us. You think about these companies that have been traditionally outsourcing overseas all of their work. It's just the way they've always done it. Well, guess what, this was a global pandemic, so overseas shut down as well. So those companies started looking for way to mitigate that risk and not have that work overseas. So our phones were ringing. And then through this economic slowdown, companies now are looking for ways to create efficiencies, what can be outsourced within my organization to be able to create some of those efficiencies. So we're having those conversations.

So now what it's about is meeting demand. To meet demand, we've got to go get centers open. We've got to have capacity and the hat's our challenge right now is finding and meeting that capacity to meet demand. We are focused on rural. You're talking about towns of five and ten thousand, so it's not a matter of just finding a building, opening a building. We're going into communities with limited real estate. We do want to be in downtown because that's where we have the impact, where we can bring life back into the heart of the community, but you've got aging infrastructure, limited resources, all of those are challenges. So rural challenges are our challenges right now, and those are what we have to address. But a very strong economy. We're very optimistic the next six months and beyond.

Bostic: All right. We're getting close to Q and A time, so go check your Slido, get in your questions. We definitely want to get that feedback. I want to go to you, India, with a question that will lead into the Q and A, you've talked a lot about your journey from a job to a career, actually from nothing to a career with Goodwill. What advice would you have for organizations like Goodwill and for employers who want to better support workers on their journey from a job to a career?

Watson: My advice would be, like I said, with the cross-training so that everybody understands what each other's contribution is in order to get the final product finished. Also, I also say that, too, about colleges being the courses being too long before you get an opportunity to actually get in there and put your hands in it and see what it smells like and what it entails. But the main thing really is being able to communicate in a way that understanding can take place. Because I would not apply for a job with Will because I do have student loan debt and I would think that, "Oh, he's not even going to entertain my résumé because I'm falling behind on my student loan payments." So you wouldn't think that you could work in financial security or any type of security if you had that blemish. It's a point of making a way where a person can redeem themselves. That's a lot.

I've had 10 different jobs before, just trying to find a place where the employer made me feel okay about helping them to live out their dreams. And so, me having to do that, I think that it's important that I'm understood as well as the needs of the employer is understood. So communication is key. We spend more time at work than with our own families so we've got to at least become cousins or something. You know with this cousin you can only do certain things. You can't prank this one. This one you can have fun with. I think that type of environment needs to be established even if it's a large company. But especially with the small businesses, I think that that's very important to try to develop a work family. Everybody has their work husband, and stuff like that.

Bostic: Listening to you, it's a really a statement about not letting someone's past define their future. And to say that everyone, no matter what you've done before, there's still potential. People still do have worth, and we need to find ways to see that at first touch and really try to lean into that.

Watson: See, I was able to put down the duct tape and the butter knife and actually really make repairs. So this was not just, this was karmic justice that I prayed for. "I'm like I can't get justice in court, I need justice." I didn't realize until I started working and I did a faucet underneath a kitchen sink and I really felt empowered. I feel felt like that I had received justice because now I know how to fix things and I really understood why I went through those things so that I could learn this skill.

Bostic: It was definitely a journey. Very inspirational.

Ruzic: India, if we had remote work, would you apply with me? I want to address that because...

Bostic: Absolutely.

Ruzic: ...she brings up many, many tremendous points. But going back to that barrier of entry into these, and certainly our organization, we put resources in place for financial consulting, for tax advice. If we're going to change the mentality and we're going to look at long-term careers, there's got to be support along the way to do that because that's how you change. We can't expect somebody to just enter into a career and then know what they're doing so we put those resources in place. It is the reason we pay 100 percent of health care. Because when we started looking at some of the challenges and you dig into some of the financial issues that many, many of our rural folks face, it can go back to a broken leg with no insurance, and all of a sudden, you're $10,000 in debt and now you've spiraled out of control. No ability to catch up. As a company, we just said, "You know what, we're taking that choice off the table, we're paying 100 percent healthcare," and now we can eliminate that issue.

But I do feel you and I understand that those are issues we've got to address. We've got to give people the confidence to come back into the workplace, to apply with organizations like us. So certainly appreciate that point.

Watson: Thank you.

Bostic: Well, thank you. So now let's go to questions. The first two questions are about barriers and to what extent are these making it harder. The first barrier is affordability and stability of housing. How is that impacting your recruitment and retention for workers at various income levels? Will, we'll start with you on that.

Ruzic: Yep. Probably either number one or number two issue and challenge in rural America, day care, childcare right there in line with it. But very little availability in, certainly, workforce housing in our rural areas. Really even in the rental market. So you talk about trying to give folks the ability to start a life, it all starts with having your own place. Not having that ability or availability in our rural areas is extremely challenging. And then being able to eventually afford your own house, move into a middle-class income and housing situation, and it's nonexistent in our rural areas. Of course, construction costs nowadays are continuing to outrun the ability for us to provide that housing in rural areas. So certainly a barrier for us but one, again, as we go into these rural areas, we look for these partnerships. We want to be a solution for these problems. We know the problems, so we want to partner with day care opportunities, we want to look at housing opportunities where we can provide support and even resources to address that. That's who we are, that's what we want to do in these rural communities.

Parker: We have not figured that one out, not even close to it. What we can do is get people on the path. But when one that ABC approach—a job, better job, career—a job is not going to support what it costs to be in an apartment in metro Atlanta right now. It just doesn't. Even the better jobs, once we get people into living with each position, it's going to require multiple people in the household working in order to afford just the basic safe place here in our region. It's only really when you get to the career level where a person can, with again, sometimes still with some levels of support, truly find housing that's affordable to them and able to send their kids to a school that they want to send them to and so on. So we have not figured that one out. It's not a rural problem, it's not an urban problem, it's not an Atlanta problem, it's fast becoming an international problem. It's not just a US-based challenge anymore. Looking at housing in some different communities in Canada, different communities throughout Europe—everybody's facing the same challenges, so love to hear the Fed's thoughts on all that.

Bostic: The Feds has a lot of thoughts on that. We're not going to go through all that today. I will just say, and I mentioned earlier, that we have a community and economic development function here. Affordable housing has been something that the Atlanta Fed has been in the forefront on. We were one of the first places partnering with Georgia Tech to talk about the evictions issues and how that is one of those areas where people then get into the panic mode when they're in this race. They don't know what to do, and then become very short run and never even think about a better job, let alone a career. It can be quite difficult. So there's a lot going on there. I would encourage everyone to stay engaged with our group.

Will, I don't know if you got to peek—I don't see you with a phone in your hand or you were peeking at the Slido, though—because the second question was on childcare and affordability, which you mentioned. We've acknowledged that it's a challenge. The last part of this question is, are there any solutions that you've seen? Anybody, because this is something I hear about a lot.

Ruzic: I have not seen any solutions that would work for the broader market. Now there are partnerships in some of the communities we're in and we're a part of some of those where corporations go in together to help fund and solve some of that. We would offer subsidies to employees to pay for childcare, but it's not available. That's the problem is it's just not there. We actually looked at putting daycare in our centers. Then attorneys and insurance companies got wind of that and we corrected, but the idea is we've got to find somebody in the community we can partner with. We're willing to put resources in that to address that. We are over 50 percent women in IT, which is very, very unique. But that also means that's second household incomes, that is a challenge in those households for daycare and so it's something we're going to have to address.

Parker: Just quickly, our career counselors, when they work with individuals, we go over all that with them. We talk about where they can find affordable health care, and that's a challenge, the insurance component, transportation component—all the things that get in the way of success, we try to talk about those things and come up with a full-scale solution. But that's one at a time. We have not come up with a global way of solving it. It's more than just one person, one family at a time.

Bostic: Well, it's a big issue and whoever figures this out, I think they're going to be incredibly successful. That model, once it's understood, because it's an issue for everybody everywhere and it's quite important.

The other thing, Will, that you mentioned, which is also interesting, we wrote a report at the beginning of the pandemic, the childcare industry was devastated by the pandemic because those small businesses didn't have buffers. That when everyone was home, they weren't going and so a lot of them just ceased functioning so just finding them is a challenge, anyone who's doing it. It's definitely going to be something we'll have to look to.

Next question on here is around K-through-12 education, and the question is a very simple one, what role does K-through-12 education play in workforce development and is that the same thing as what role it should play in terms of workforce development?

Parker: I can start. I can say it's critical. The long-term solution to, I think, our income inequality is more quality education. The disparate realities of young people is extraordinary. I was looking, Raphael—your alma mater from Boston sent out a note recently basically telling families that they need to be prepared to spend $95,000 a year to send their kid to college. 95,000 bucks a year. There are families, of course, who can afford that. And those who can afford it, do it, and have all sorts of great prep opportunities for their kids and so forth so that they can take full advantage of that. But the super vast majority of people cannot, and they are stuck in situations that make this income gap and the ability to move up the economic ladder even greater.

So K through 12, getting it more equitable in different places—the reality we're here in Fulton County right now, a north Fulton education is different than a south Fulton education in reality today. Same school system, but very different outcomes. If we are to be long-term successful, it shouldn't be Goodwill helping to practically rescue India from a homeless shelter and finding her an opportunity and through all of her great work, finding now stability. That shouldn't be the norm. The norm should be far more people who get a great education, great support, and then they go through high school and if they want to stop there, find really meaningful jobs that are stable and so forth. If they want to go to college, it shouldn't be who my mom and dad are that determines what college you get to go to. It should be much more individual merit and so forth.

So K-through-12 education needs to be more equitable across the board for the long-term success I think of our communities.

Bostic: I'll just have to leave it there, because...

Parker: I was too long-winded in my answer.

Bostic: ...we're at 10:28 and I did want to say two things on that. So one, a lot of these more expensive schools are starting these policies that if your income is below a certain level, you go for free. They've really tried to be more equitable in terms of how people have access to it.

The other piece to this, which is K-through-12 education, but also how we attract and advertise jobs—focus much more on skills as opposed to pedigree. And making sure that the people who can do the job see themselves as being eligible of the job. That's something that all of us have to do.

I'm going to end this at 10:30 because we need to be done at 10:30. I just want to say for all of you, so inspirational. It's been wonderful listening to you. You've given us all lots to think about, and it's been absolutely wonderful.

Miki, any closing comments.

Bowman: Well, what have been really inspirational to actually get to hear your story, India, and to see how your organization has really provided that opportunity for you to be successful because of the confidence that it's given you, engaging and communicating on your behalf, which I think is really something that more people who are in your situation who are able to transcend that can benefit from. I think it's that confidence to engage with Will in a completely different industry and have a conversation that's a meaningful one is really fantastic and wonderful to hear.

I think what I have learned a lot from today—besides gray tsunami, which I had never heard before, Anita—that one stuck with me, is that we're still seeing a lot of the same challenges that we saw last summer coming out of the pandemic still presenting issues for us that we'll need to continue to track and listen and ask question of people across the country about how we can deal with some of these issues like affordable housing, like access to childcare, and all of these things that can be significant barriers to work and to work in a reliable and meaningful way.

So I really appreciate the opportunity to have a conversation to help us continue to understand and to take on what you've taught us today and what we've learned and implement that in our work as we're thinking about economic conditions going forward. Thank you.

Bostic: And I'm going to thank you, Miki, for being with us. I thank all of you in the room and all of you that have been streaming online. This had been a wonderful, wonderful morning. Very interesting. Lots to think about. For all of you, please, on Slido, there is a short feedback survey. If you go on the website and go into polls, you'll see that there. Five questions, so you should be able to do that quickly. It really helps us moving forward. And then, please as I said at the very beginning, stay connected with us. We have a lot of things through the Atlanta Fed. If you're on, I guess it's X now, it used to be called Twitter, we're at @AtlantaFed and, please, we are doing these things for you, so please take advantage of them. Thank you all and have a great rest of your day.